tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post115318470392984435..comments2023-06-22T02:27:01.854-07:00Comments on Shiraz Socialist: Just Bloody Awfulvoltaires_priesthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153347988289455432006-07-19T15:26:00.000-07:002006-07-19T15:26:00.000-07:00Regardless of what is or isn't Betty Hunter's pers...Regardless of what is or isn't Betty Hunter's personal position on Israel (and I must confess that I haven't the faintest idea what her view is), it remains a fact that the PSC's formal position is for two states, does it not?voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153339682032468132006-07-19T13:08:00.000-07:002006-07-19T13:08:00.000-07:00Louis: you clearly have little or no understanding...Louis: you clearly have little or no understanding of the Marxist/Leninist tradition on nationalism. Are you a Luxemburgist? Or only Luxemburgist when it comes to Israel? Benny Morris' point about the USA (as I understand it -I'm not that familiar with his work)is that it was a "settler" state, but that no-one now caqlls for its destruction because of that. The left and liberals call for reparations, but not for the destruction of the "illegitinate" state...yet people *do* adopt that position with regard to Israel: why?Jim Denhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00364272346989690845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153332698216865442006-07-19T11:11:00.000-07:002006-07-19T11:11:00.000-07:00I am not concerned with rancid individuals but ran...I am not concerned with rancid individuals but rancid politics. Zionism and socialism are completely incompatible unless the colonizers had seized land in Germany after WWII to set up their exclusivist state. Instead they grabbed Arab land just like the Europeans grabbed Indian land. Benny Morris understood completely what this was about when he stated that "Even the great American democracy could not have been created without the annihilation of the Indians."Louis Proyecthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08876739966025806002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153329610929827712006-07-19T10:20:00.000-07:002006-07-19T10:20:00.000-07:00You're quite simply *wrong", Trini: many leading m...You're quite simply *wrong", Trini: many leading members of the PSC (eg: Betty Hunter) stand for the destruction of Israel. All the 'left' groups (SWP, Socialist Action, "Resistance", etc) that support it are for the total destruction of Israel.<BR/><BR/>By the way, the idea that Israel is an "apartheid" state is simply nonsense, that had been repeatedly demolished, most recently by John Strawson on the 'Engage' website. Google it.Jim Denhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00364272346989690845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153321346811976912006-07-19T08:02:00.000-07:002006-07-19T08:02:00.000-07:00The PSC has never disputed the right for Israel to...The PSC has never disputed the right for Israel to exist. Israel has hardly made that concept a possibility.. such as the aparthied system which operates between the Jews and the other minorities, such as restrictions put on Arabs obtaining property and land. In Gaza the water supply has literally been destroyed.. a wall has been built in West Bank, which Israel refuses to bring down. The refusal of Israel to withdraw the Jewish settlements from West Bank territories, deciding to annex these areas into Israel, making the Two State solution an impossibility to fulfil. <BR/><BR/>There is a enviromental crisis, with water supply etc and the idea for these two nations to live seperate, in the last few years has become futile, so I do believe it is for |Israel to take the idea of the two states solution to become possible and the first thing to do is to stop killing and destroying the Palestinian and the Lebanonese. We need to realise that Israel has not gone through the security council to resolve the Lebenon crisis and israeli is not either willing to obey and respect International laws.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153318707110004532006-07-19T07:18:00.000-07:002006-07-19T07:18:00.000-07:00Is there any "rancid" individual in particular to ...Is there any "rancid" individual in particular to whom you're addressing that point, Louis?voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153317004622051162006-07-19T06:50:00.000-07:002006-07-19T06:50:00.000-07:00I continued to be amazed by the tendency of social...I continued to be amazed by the tendency of social democrats to refer to Karl Marx (or Lenin, Luxemberg, etc.) in order to justify their rancid politics. Wouldn't it be more honest to invoke Irving Howe, Jay Lovestone and Francois Mitterand?Louis Proyecthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08876739966025806002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153309497331542342006-07-19T04:44:00.000-07:002006-07-19T04:44:00.000-07:00Then we're getting our wires crossed. You said tha...Then we're getting our wires crossed. <BR/><BR/>You said that their argument was about mitigation, and I said their argument was unsustainable on that basis. <BR/><BR/><I>My</I> argument, however, is that supporting the GFA (even critically) would have been the right thing to do, because it opened up a space for progressive politics that would not otherwise have been there. And prevented a whole lot of people dying along the way.voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153308852969550312006-07-19T04:34:00.000-07:002006-07-19T04:34:00.000-07:00That's not what I said. That's precisely what the ...That's not what I said. That's precisely what the argument isn't about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153304046587341632006-07-19T03:14:00.000-07:002006-07-19T03:14:00.000-07:00Not ones that could credibly be used to justify su...Not ones that could credibly be used to justify support for the war, no.voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153296231847234712006-07-19T01:03:00.000-07:002006-07-19T01:03:00.000-07:00'Unmitigated'? It's very bad, but there are mitiga...'Unmitigated'? It's very bad, but there are mitigations, aren't there?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153292854042860762006-07-19T00:07:00.000-07:002006-07-19T00:07:00.000-07:00Clive;Well, except that LFIQ can't even sustain th...Clive;<BR/><BR/>Well, except that LFIQ can't even sustain their argument because Iraq has turned out to be an unmitigated disaster.voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153260505817492712006-07-18T15:08:00.000-07:002006-07-18T15:08:00.000-07:00Hmmm...<A HREF="http://newerlabour.blogspot.com/2006/07/in-my-opinion-best-worked-out-marxists.html" REL="nofollow">Hmmm...</A>Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07801341846218646357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153248209711293252006-07-18T11:43:00.000-07:002006-07-18T11:43:00.000-07:00Fair point. In retrospect, it obviously was better...Fair point. In retrospect, it obviously was better there was a GFA than if there had not been; and I suppose if I could have known for certain this would be the case, I might have taken a different view.<BR/><BR/>But at the time, the referendum was asking us, among other things, to advocate a vote for the entrenchment of sectarian divisions.<BR/><BR/>I guess you could say those who were more sanguine about the GFA were right, had better foresight. Maybe that's true.<BR/><BR/>But I don't think it follows that in every case you have to make an assessment about what's likely to lead to the best outcome and then back it. That, basically, is the approach of the Euston Manifesto/ILFIQ etc regarding Iraq. Isn't it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153246309388080262006-07-18T11:11:00.000-07:002006-07-18T11:11:00.000-07:00Clive on that basis you could abstain on every pol...Clive on that basis you could abstain on every political issue in the world by saying 'I'm glad it happened but I don't support it'. Which would give you a splendid sense of being right about absolutely everything but mean that your opinions had no purchase on the real world whatsoever.voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153245500023792052006-07-18T10:58:00.000-07:002006-07-18T10:58:00.000-07:00The Falklanders didn't suddenly pop up there. But ...The Falklanders didn't suddenly pop up there. But even Fish N Chip eating Brits have the right not to be occupied by a military dictatorship.<BR/><BR/>Actually, large sections of the international left were entirely with us on this one, including the healthiest groups in Argentina.<BR/><BR/>VP: I don't think it is a cop out, no. I support the overthrow of Stalinism in Eastern Europe; doesn't mean I therefore support capitalism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153241123953854692006-07-18T09:45:00.000-07:002006-07-18T09:45:00.000-07:00It’s kind of interesting how a few innocuous comme...It’s kind of interesting how a few innocuous comments provoke such debate.<BR/><BR/>Kelpers aren’t a nation in themselves but British and the conflict was Britain and it’s desire to maintain its colony v Argentina. It wasn’t 1500 Kelpers v Argentina. The Malvinas are like if some Spanish Costa, full of Fish ‘n’ Chip pubs, suddenly declared itself a detached part of Essex. <BR/><BR/>As you are no doubt proud, the AWL is far removed from most of the left on these issues. Have you ever thought that your distance from the rest of the pack is not clever foresight but an ever increasing flawed deviation from the collective wisdom of most revolutionary socialists? <BR/>So Workers Liberty’s current front web page starts well - Stop the Israeli assault on Gaza and Lebanon! But then, in an incredible article, directs most of its fire on Hamas and Hezbollah. What’s the current Palestinian and Lebanese v Israeli death toll since the first prisoner capture?!<BR/>The article includes ‘Hamas would rather play with the lives of Palestinian people’ Any organisation that follows a military strategy “plays with the lives of … people”. Only a pacifist can have a problems with this although all note it with regret. Israel is hardly going to take notice of polite requests and whilst it would be welcome, Palestinians can’t wait for mass action by Israeli workers in their support.<BR/><BR/>The article also states, “Once again senseless small-scale provocative guerrilla action by the militias of Hamas and Hezbollah.” Capturing Israeli soldiers is a good strategy. Past experience suggest the Israelis will pay a high price of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in exchange. Or should Palestinian prisoners be left to rot?<BR/><BR/>As you head where Jane Ashworth (There’s a name I never thought I would hear again) and the like have trail blazed the path for you, spare a thought for people like me who never mention their once membership of SO because I then have to spend a further ten minutes explaining they were very different then and distancing myself from your current politics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153239485891302112006-07-18T09:18:00.000-07:002006-07-18T09:18:00.000-07:00Indeed, but in deciding one's attitude to the GFA,...Indeed, but in deciding one's attitude to the GFA, one has to bear in mind that tied to that, comes the question of one's attitude to the ceasefire that comes with the GFA.<BR/><BR/>Whether or not you're for a ceasefire in the abstract, is not entirely relevant to the question at hand.voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153238519609959992006-07-18T09:01:00.000-07:002006-07-18T09:01:00.000-07:00The degree to whch GFA has enshrined sectarianism ...The degree to whch GFA has enshrined sectarianism is exempliefied by David Ervine MLA joining the Official Unionist group in Stormont, to give a unionist majority.<BR/><BR/>I think it was perfectly possible to argue for both a cease fire, and a no vote to the GFA.ANhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05901425044840795347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153235825805383142006-07-18T08:17:00.000-07:002006-07-18T08:17:00.000-07:00Clive you're right about national rights for South...Clive you're right about national rights for South African whites: I stand corrected. But, as you say, it doesn't effect the rest of my argument.Jim Denhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00364272346989690845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153231785828342592006-07-18T07:09:00.000-07:002006-07-18T07:09:00.000-07:00This seems to me to be a bit of a cop-out, if I'm ...This seems to me to be a bit of a cop-out, if I'm being perfectly honest. Surely, all caveats aside, when it comes down to it either you think it was a good thing, or you don't. And if it was a bad thing, then it would be better if it had never happened. That's a position with which I wouldn't agree, but which would at least be consistent. <BR/><BR/>But it seems to me that your position is "it's good that it happened because life for ordinary people in NI has improved so much, but it should never have happened". Which really doesn't make sense.voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153231487698096502006-07-18T07:04:00.000-07:002006-07-18T07:04:00.000-07:00This is pertinent to much discussion about Iraq, a...This is pertinent to much discussion about Iraq, actually: it's possible to welcome certain things, or certain consequences, without giving political endorsement. It seems to me that Northern Ireland is a much better place to live than it used to be. But Simon's right, the Agreement enshrined sectarianism, and that was a good reason not to give it support.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153230076396082452006-07-18T06:41:00.000-07:002006-07-18T06:41:00.000-07:00Actually, the significant minority within the AWL ...Actually, the significant minority within the AWL who called for a critical Yes vote were right, because a cessation of sectarian killings opens up a space for more progressive dialogue. Anyone in the AWL who supports the "oppose the GFA" position and seriously wants to argue that things would have moved further if it had never happened than they have with it, is of course welcome to do so. But I'd like to see how they'd manage to put that argument.voltaires_priesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00346308174248473666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153226050363946192006-07-18T05:34:00.000-07:002006-07-18T05:34:00.000-07:00We were quite right to oppose the Good Friday Agre...We were quite right to oppose the Good Friday Agreement.<BR/><BR/>It institutionalises sectarianism. All elected politicians have huge pressure to identify as either nationalist or unionist, as there must be a majority on both sides in the assembly to pass any legislation.<BR/><BR/>The GFA also has written in to it that the nationalists can call a referendum on a United Ireland when they have a majority. This doesn't solve the problem, as whoever is a majority or a minority doesn't matter. The point is that both peoples have rights, and both will fight for them.<BR/><BR/>The GFA is a timebomb.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28924640.post-1153225790405451102006-07-18T05:29:00.000-07:002006-07-18T05:29:00.000-07:00The difference between South Africa and Israel is ...The difference between South Africa and Israel is that Israeli Jews are a nation that doesn't rely on exploitation of Palestinian labour. Indeed, Palestinian labour is largely excluded. The Israeli jews and the Palestinians are both viable nations, and a majority of both want their own states. <BR/>The white South Africans rule(d) by explotaition of the black majority. They aren't a nation, but an elite reliant on black labour. Race and class are virtually the same thing in South Africa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com